socialaus... something regarding your post

[SHATOUSHKA]

on this thread: S&C THREAD

i tinkered with the idea of posting my
thoughts to your post in the actual S&C forum,
but assumed that it would only be negated
by higher-than-thou attitudes.

so i thought it best to mention here.

here is what i want to talk on:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#25004f"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">would the other states be more inclined to become more socialist or would they have a negative affect where they would become more resistance to socialism and slow down the national movement/revolution of socialism.. i have pondered this before reading the article and often thought as well that could a country town become a socialist town yet still be able to survie in a capitalist country.. or would the pressures of a surrounding capitalist country crush the movement and render it impossible to continue??</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think we both know and fear the answer to that question.
it is obvious (to me) that capitalism won't
go down without one helluva fight... rather
like the christian right.

the illusions of capitalism are so tempting
to the banal public that i just don't see
the average (american) joe switching abruptly.
that illusion is supported by a weight of
media hype (not to mention downplay),
technological advancement (in minor, superficial
areas), and of course.... natural behavior
(i.e.-- hording, et al.).

upon numerous occasions i have attempted to
test this theory... each time resulting in
(what i feel to be) a negative result.

the illusions of what i call 'pre-chaos'
are so astounding, so immense, i just can't
see the next transition -- 'chaos' -- to be
any time within my life.

it is unfortunate that capitalism is being
shrouded (and saddled) with democracy...
because i feel that the average joe cannot
distinguish between the two.

when contemplating which root to take...
in order to begin the perpetual push towards
'chaos'... and essentially socialism ...
i simply cannot determine which area should
be pricked first.

if any of what i'm saying makes sense to you
(or anyone else on this board)... maybe
you can offer a suggestion as to what area
should be altered first.

[zelazny]

i'm not wholly sure what you tried to say with that post, but bravo!
Capitalism has it's drawbacks too, mostly in the fact that everyone tries to get money, and in the end someone ends up paying for it. Most people don't seem to understand that.

[SHATOUSHKA]

here is what i meant.... in note form:

1 -- capitalism has been floating around for
a long time. it spawns competition, and due to
that fact, people can generally see the effects
of ambition and drive immediately. this creates
an illusion (especially here in america) that
if anyone tries hard enough, they can easily
attain anything. capitalism will not die easily.

2 -- (a) this 'illusion' is supported by news stories
and other forms of direct fiction. the 'rags to
riches' storyline is very popular. (and of course
i'm not strictly speaking of monetary riches)
the thought of the lesser, more heroic 'nobody'
struggling and battling his way to the top of
the pyramid of respect, interest, attention,
and wealth is threaded in almost every aspect
of popular stories, music, blah blah blah.

(b) superficial technological advancements help
generate the desire for competition. the latest
gadgets and new and improved things make a standard
sub-standard. therefore, lesser in perceived value.

(c) the natural tendency to horde or steal from
that which has more.... to become that which has
more, adds to the competition behind capitalism.
that which has less is, like with the advancements,
lesser in perceived value.

3 -- capitalism shrouded with democracy....
what i meant by this is -- if i were to walk up
to any shmoe on the street and ask if he would
easily give up capitalism for a 'greater good'
(true socialism), the guy would feel that what
i was asking is if he would give up democracy.
for some reason, IMO, democracy necessitates
capitalism (in the common thought).
we could argue that this is very true... in that
with democracy, every voice is heard... showing
that one voice is more recognized than another...
instigating competition, but i'll hold off.
i was merely attempting to show that the average
person (here) cannot distinguish between
capitalism and democracy.

4 -- the 'pre-chaos', 'chaos', and 'post-chaos'
terms are something i am working on individually.
i've mentioned it before on this (or was it GP?)
forum. i won't go into it now. however, i will
say that it is a measurement i am constructing
in order to bases my perceptions of status in
the context of 'why things are'.

5 -- my final question was basically:
in light of these ideas, how would one go about
establishing a new order? what aspect of the
current order should be reconstructed first?

*************

my apologies in the confusion of my post. as we
all know, i have the tendency to be the only
person aware of what i'm talking about. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[kaant]

you have some pretty good questions there, and i cant answer them all. all i know is that I will never live in a "true socialist" state. but hey its worth trying, maybe someone will get it right.

there are many transition stages involved in the progression of capitalism to socialism and some of them take more time.

capitalism has left many a people disilluisioned about democracy and about making it big. y'know some people will work hard all their lives and still end up with the same rank of their fellow workers at the lower end of the class system.

as for the average joe accepting it... well most people will do what is usually best for themselves and secondly the community. and if socialists are the ones doing whats best for the community and that helps the average joe, then the people will look towards the ones helping them. of course there is that BIG stigma communist have received in the usa over the last 50 years.

Fuck there will be chaos when the revolution is happening, cause when you think about it, this small group of people arnt going to hand over everything that they have "aquired" over the many years without a fight. (of course they wont be doing it, maybe the christian right will do it for free [img]tongue.gif[/img] but they are willing to lose some of their money in war if thier gain is worth more then the battle.)

The idea is to bring the public into the light about socialism so they know more about what is going to happen and also to increase the odds that the revolution will be so big that any action by the capitalists will be in vain but also that the status quo will be overthrown more quickly that they dont have a chance to retailate.

idealy capitalism is the early stages of socialism and that the advancements of capitalism also meant that capitalism will outlive its usefullness and transform into socialism (ideally) hence the phrase: "Capitalism digs its own grave"

the problems with the left at the moment is we are so disorganised.. many of us on that board do not belong to the same party, well except myself and fisk, all the other belong to different faction of socialism and trotskyism. and we have differnet views on how things are done.. but i do have this to say and that is.. if the trotzky's come to power the god help us all lol [img]eek.gif[/img] every week will be a new revolution lol

as for the increaseing pace of technology.. fuck do you really need all this new junk coming out?? i dont but some people do and they think that these things are necessary in life?????
socialism will slow things down, put some technologies to their full use cause when you think about it.. a pentium 1 with windows 95 would be sufficent with what my needs are at the moment.. and the only programs that need all this new faster technology are just games....

more later..

[kaant]

just a note about the last paragraph.
1. there should of been a ! after the fuck. just so it doesnt look like i am haveing a go at anyone here [img]tongue.gif[/img] lol

2. technology will be driven not by profit but by human need, y'know just think of what could be accomplished if technology put all or most of its effort into helping people and society rather then into some computer box that allows several kids to hook up to one game and blow that fuck out things all day long. imagine what the internet could do for us if we took all the time and money and bandwidth from porno, casinos and all other get rich scams on the internet and turned it into a broader online community.
that is a good example of capitalism to socialism, porn and casinos, other money making ventures made the internet popular or well made it well known, but for other people it has become more then that, and it can become so much more..

maybe more later. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[SHATOUSHKA]

i completely concur, SL.

but based on what i see now, i do not see
any sort of revolution (large scale) in
the future of my life.

every new war on the horizon gives me some
sort of inner anxiety that 'surely this time'
things will spawn reflection and possibly change.

the situation going on in the middle east
with the bastard bush is a prime example.
after reading (and posting) the supposed letter
from bin laden, i about passed out with glee.
even if bin laden didn't actually write the
letter, whomever did made some profound remarks
about the way things are going in our 'worldly
community'.

unfortunately, no one seems to take notice.

if i were to hand out copies of the letter
to students on campus, my guess is, 7-8 out
of 10 students wouldn't care... simply because
of the media hype surrounding the antagonist
bin laden.

this is unfortunate because i feel that what
was expressed in the letter is important.
many of the comments/viewpoints in the letter
are somewhat how i feel as well.
its just, for the first time in my cognitive
life, someone with some power is finally saying it.

[kaant]

i have not heard of this new document from osama bin laden.

i personally hate bin laden.. not because of what he did but rather what he pushed back because of his actions...

here for example before 11/9, Labour looked like it would win in a landslide victory.. many social movements were beginning to take hold on many ordaniary aussies. as well as many ordaniary yanks were realising that the dem/repub monopoly on govt. was leading them nowhere and that Bush was shown that he was a useless leader (still is) Things definately look positive for a progressive movement. then Blam. Blam Blam and then the almight FUCK IT!

for a short period there was a chance that many americans and westerners would take a good hard look at themselves and thier role in the world. well a short period of about half a day, then the "patriots" also known as Nationalists took over and then the rest is well known...

maybe there will not be a big large scale revolution but there can be many smaller revolutions or progressions in society that could make up for the one big revolution..

i am not for a violent revolution but rather more constructive progressive movements, the more you can get the society to progress then the more likely they would strive towards socialism..

unfortunatly many people have been jaded by the media or worse sucked into the lies that have been spread..
"they hate us because of our freedom & democracy" is the one i hate the most... is should be more like "they hate us because our Democracy and freedom allows us to ignore their plight and suffering at the hands of our important allies".. after all our freedoms & democracy allow us to make an extreme profit off those who dont have our freedoms and democracy....

btw can you post the letter...

[TastinGood]

Here is a link!